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Post by Adona Mara on Feb 7, 2007 14:16:54 GMT -5
Originally posted by Jinsei
Ok, this is always a topic of debate, so I figured that I'd bring it to you all and see what you think.
They say that the less we spank, the lower our crime rates are, and the healthier our children turn out. I've got to wonder, if 90% of parents in the 1930s spanked their children and only 33% of parents spank their children now, which group of children turned out to be better for society? The kids from the 30s would now be around 70 years old. In their prime (20-30), it would have been the 50s and 60s. The 50s were relatively peaceful from what I've heard, the 60s themselves weren't so bad, especially the crime rates. The 70s saw people becoming hippies and opposing war, with very few of them ever resorting to violence to get their message of peace across, although drug use was on the rise. But, we've got to remember that the kids born in the 30s would have been in their 40s then, and were likely spanking their kids a bit less than their parents spanked them.
Come forward to the 90s, when only a third of the US population spanks their children and instead resorts to time-outs or simply explaining to them how their behavior is bad. There's really not any punishment going on there, because going to a corner for 10 minutes only results in boredom and pent-up energy that's going to be used up after their allowed to leave the corner. But, look at the surge in violence from people who grew up in the 90s and weren't spanked. I don't see how anyone can say that crime rates have gone down simply because we don't spank children anymore.
I know that growing up my mom wasn't afraid to spank me for any act of misbehavior that she'd previously warned me about. If I was being especially bad, she'd threaten to have my dad spank me when he got home... a threat worse than saying she'd kill me! I remember thinking that if I acted out in any way that showed I clearly intended to misbehave, then there'd likely be a hand or belt having a conversation with my behind shortly afterward. I remember being 3 (in 1983) and my dad making me sit on the floor behind the couch as my brother and sister were bent over it and got their spanking with the "money belt" which is a belt with a zipper that runs along its length. Sure, they cried and their butts were sore, but the lesson had been delivered in a method that they weren't likely to forget. For me, I just had to sit there and watch what would happen if I did the same thing they did... and as far as I know, I never did it. Being the youngest, I definitely saw less of the spankings, because I had the benefit of my brother and sister being older and being able to learn from their mistakes.
Now, my brother and sister are the type of people who don't ever spank their kids, because they believe that it's too violent and will scar the children emotionally. I spank Arianna when she needs it and she's aware that a spanking may be headed her way for breaking the rules. Over the summer, I had all but one niece here and got to experience what it was like to have four kids who weren't spanked, but instead got "time-outs." One niece would listen after the first time she lied to me and I confronted her about it, she's 8. The other three simply would not listen, them ranging from 6 years old to 12. They'd fight with each other, intentionally ruin each others things, fight, slide down the stair railing after multiple warnings and being placed in time-out for each one, etc. Finally, I was pushed to my limit with the oldest nephew and spanked him with the belt, not too hard but hard enough to get the point across that I wasn't going to deal with it anymore. The rest of the summer, he listened to everything I said, and the other two began to do the same. My brother won't speak to me because he's under the impression that I spanked his daughter that actually behaved except for the one lie. My sister, the mother of the nephew I spanked, doesn't have a problem with it after I explained to her what he'd done to deserve it.
To sum up the above paragraph, one bout of spanking and three kids suddenly behaved for weeks. My grandparents and everyone their age... incidentally born before the 1930s, strongly support my decision to spank him. The younger the people I ask, the less they support it and go on about how spanking results in the children growing up to be violent adults.
Ok, I've really rambled on with this a lot more than I planned, but what do you all think? To spank or not to spank? And, why?
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Post by Adona Mara on Feb 7, 2007 14:19:34 GMT -5
Originally posted by Icarus
This is a tricky one, Jinsei.
Personally, I prefer other methods to spanking. Generally, I like to sit my children down, ask them why they did something, ask them what they should have done to achieve the desired result, and then have them act in that fashion to correct the problem. My husband, on the other hand- He feels that children will respect you more if you use force. Well, I see fear coming from spankings, so it is only out of fear that children respect you if you constantly spank them and never "instruct" them. Hachelen does explain why they are receiving a spanking and what they should have done to not be in the position of receiving one.
I do believe that spankings are necessary at times though. For extremely bad things like breaking something or harming someone on purpose, lying after several attempts have been made to get to the issue of the problem, stealing.... that sort of junk.
Sometimes, it does take force. Sometimes, it doesn't.
Once, my son got very angry with me. He tried to "tackle" me as he does in football. He hit me so hard that I couldn't breathe, but I picked him up and pushed him across the room and into the wall. I got in his face and told him, "You're my son and I love you, but if you ever try this mess again, I'll show you what my darkside is like."
He's never so much as looked at me wrong again.
So, yes, spankings are warranted from time to time, but they should never be used exclusively. As a child, I received a "whuppin'" everyday (literally) whether I needed it or not. I took a lot of them for my little sister too. (Maybe I should have let her take her own?) And, I think that it also depends on what you use for a spanking tool. Belts, ok... paddles, ok...... phone wires-not so good. Baseball bats-never. Hands: I have heard some people say that the hand should never be used for spanking because a child should see your body as a comforting thing. But, I think that the hand is better because it shows the child that you can be comforting and stern when needed.
Basically, it is necessary to have a balance. I mean, you're not one of those people that just spanks their children for the sake of spanking.
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Post by Adona Mara on Feb 7, 2007 14:21:45 GMT -5
Originally posted by Jinsei
Oh, I definitely don't think spanking should always be the first resort, but it should always remain an option.
Take lying for example, I very firm in the belief that if you'll lie about something, then you'll be more likely to do other things if you're allowed to get away with lying. My solution for Arianna when it comes to lying is to have her "spank her mouth"... I have the option of telling her when she should do it harder, but generally just the fact that she has to punish herself for lying is enough to help persuade her from doing it the next time.
The reason I spanked my nephew was for what I consider "gross misconduct"... quite in-depth to explain, but I drew my line at when he put my daughter in danger through his stupidty of breaking a rule for the third time... sliding down the railing.
I agree with you about belts and paddles. I generally use my hand that so I can also feel exactly how much of a swing is behind it... contrary to popular belief, you can get a redhand from spanking someone else! Belts, I use for the more severe things, and it's more of the threat of getting the belt than it actually being used. The closest I've ever come to using a paddle was a paperback book that the kids had torn the cover off of. However, it wasn't a very thick paperback, so there wasn't much behind it.
My uncle made a paddle for his kids, it had their names routered into each side, that way if they were bad, he could spank them and leave a name on their butts. Imagine the humilty of being spanked and having your sister's name left behind!
Anything beyond a belt or simple paddle, I don't agree with. There's a reason that butts are padded, but there's also a limit to the padding.
Other forms of discipline that I like to use...
Standing in a corner, a minute per year of age.
Send them to bed... sending them to their room doesn't accomplish anything.
Take away certain toys, usually a punishment that can bring about more tears than spanking.
And, once I tortured a kid by turning on his favorite cartoon and making him stand in the corner that so he could hear it, but not see it.
Quote: Hachelen does explain why they are receiving a spanking and what they should have done to not be in the position of receiving one.
If you don't explain it to them and make it an actual lesson to be learned, then you don't accomplish anything. I think that should be included when people start complaining about how to define spanking versus abuse. If you're simply spanking them to spank them and never tell them why or what they did wrong, then nothing's accomplished. I always ask Arianna if she knows what she did wrong before dishing out any kind of discipline. If she does, then it moves on to asking her what kind of punishment she should get. If she chooses something that's actually worth it, then I don't make her go through with it. The other day, she chose to stand in the corner for 4 minutes... adding an extra one to what she'd normally get, so I complimented her on her choice and let her go watch cartoons. Some people have complained about my method of doing stuff like this, because in the end they don't get punished for doing something wrong, but they fail to realize that the punishment came in the form of having to choose what you get and then hoping it's good enough to not warrant actually having to do it or something more.
During the summer, my youngest nephew kept interrupting my wife and I when we were talking. I told him that if he didn't stop, I was going to make him eat a bar of soap. Well, he did it again. So, I asked him if he wanted the plain white soap or the scented green stuff. His answer was, "None." I went into the kitchen and came back, he could see the white in my hand. I made him sit on the couch, lean back, close his eyes and open his mouth. When he did so, I stuck a marshmallow in his mouth. Instantly he spat it out, then realized what I'd done. Everyone had a good laugh about it and the rest of the kids wanted one as well. There was a fear there that he'd have to actually have a bar of soap in his mouth and that was more effective in the long run than actually sticking one in there.
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Post by Adona Mara on Feb 7, 2007 14:23:23 GMT -5
Originally posted by Jinsei
I like your approach to punishment, Jinsei.
I was just telling Aslyn this the other day, but when I was a little kid (about six or so) my grandmother told me to go stand in the corner. This was the worst thing for me to do because I honestly just couldn't stand having someone control what I did, what I could say, or how long I couldn't do as I wished. So, on this particular day, she told me to go stand in the corner. She went off to do something that grandmothers tend to do and I proceeded to peal away the wallpaper that was in the corner. When she came back to release me from punishment, she saw what I had done and got sooooooooo mad at me. She then told me to go "pick my switch."
One thing that I did when my kids were very small: If they lied, or used harsh words inappropriately, I would have them go brush their teeth to "get the bad stuff out of their mouth." It worked for the longest time, but now, it doesn't work so well.
Also, when my sons get really aggressive, or I can tell that they are acting out because of frustration, I challenge them to a battle. We wrestle, have a lightsaber fight, or see how many push-ups we can do (I tend to lose every time.). It helps because by the end of it, they are usually laughing at me so hard that they have forgotten about their frustration.
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Post by Adona Mara on Feb 7, 2007 14:24:19 GMT -5
Originally posted by Tom W
My Dad always used a spanking as a last resort, it worked, he only had to mention his slipper to stopp us being naughty for years after a single spanking. Then he could explain why something was wrong. Me and my bro have turned out OK.
Tom W
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Post by Adona Mara on Feb 7, 2007 14:25:18 GMT -5
Originally posted by Hecate
I'm going to be honest here, I've skimmed this. There is so much to read and I haven't the time to honour it all with detailed study. But I do have an opinion; and it's not the opinion I would have given you some years ago.
I thought it was acceptable, a final resort as has been said here. The whole 'it didn't do me any harm' is really not a good argument. How do any of us know how we'd be if things had happened differently?
In all my experience as a parent I can say for myself, and maybe extrapolate to others, that it is a fallback when one has actually failed to find a more reasoned or powerful response.
Is it acceptable to beat a colleague up if they behave in a way we don't like? Or to attack someone on the street who treats us rudely or lies? Of course not. This conversation wouldn't be happening. Yet here we as parents can say it's alright to subject someone far smaller than us to the weight of our physical power.
What can that possibly teach but fear or hatred? That it's OK to use physical violence to get your own way, that learning can happen without any true understanding other than your parent says it's wrong and if you don't listen they will hit you.
I'm not suggesting we allow our children to overpower us. I am no push over (as I'm sure you can imagine). I am apparently at my most terrifying when I ask one of them to sit down, and speak very quietly so they have to listen. You see I want them to hear, and I think they do that one whole lot better by having things explained to them than by hitting them.
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Post by Adona Mara on Feb 7, 2007 14:26:21 GMT -5
Originally posted by Icarus
*wonders what it would have been like to have Hecate as a mom*
You know, I was wondering about something. I have noticed that people from the north (those yankee devils) are less likely to spank (generally speaking). So is this a southern thing?
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Post by Adona Mara on Feb 7, 2007 14:27:41 GMT -5
Originally posted by Hecate
Icarus wrote:
ROFL! You'd have to ask my kids. Actually they all say they really appreciate how I treated them (and no, I don't have them backed into a corner when they say that ). I am apparently a cool mummy.
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Post by Adona Mara on Feb 7, 2007 14:30:33 GMT -5
Originally posted by Tom W
If you can find a system which doesn't involve spanking then that's all fine and dandy as long as it works. It is important that mothers don't end up like those "Yes darling, whatever you say darling." or "Yes Davikins." etc. type mums. There's a kid at school whose a complete nut but he could make his parents do anything he wanted even when he was 12, it is not conducive to good behaviour.
Tom W
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Post by Adona Mara on Feb 7, 2007 14:31:37 GMT -5
Originally posted by Adona Mara
So much of it depends on the individual child. Some kids respond to The Look or The Lecture (personally I preferred being spanked to being lectured ). I've never had kids, so I don't know what I would do.
It was Dad's job to administer spankings, and they were generally short, and were proceeded by the explanation of why we were being spanked, along with instructions on how to avoid it in the future. Of course, I was never very good at following instructions
One thing my Dad always made sure of, though, was that we understood that we were forgiven (if we apologized or otherwise expressed sincere regret), but there were consequences for certain actions, and if A happened, the B was the result -- no excuses, no exceptions. I'm afraid I rather grew up believing that there should be consequences for actions -- something I think is lost on some kids today.
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Post by Adona Mara on Feb 7, 2007 14:32:55 GMT -5
Originally posted by Icarus
Adona Mara wrote:
That is true, but they also have absolutely no idea of personal responsibility.
The "Everyone gets a trophy" mentality is destroying personal drive and the sense of responsibility in children. Why should they really participate or give their all when everyone gets a reward in the end?
Just yesterday, Danny and I had this conversation with our children who somehow managed to labor under the delusion that they had no responsibilities. They seem to think that they have it so tough. I suppose every child feels that way at some time or another, but this was ridiculous. My daughter thinks it's unfair that she doesn't have a phone in her room, my son-a computer, my baby-that he doesn't get to do everything the older two get to do. Uhhhhhhhh...........sorry, but nothing in this life is free and you have to work for everything. I know kids out there that have tvs, phones, sterios, computers, surround sounds, mp3 players, and every other technological gadget that I can't identify, and do you know what they had to do to get those things-nothing! If it is broken or damaged by irresponsible actions, it gets replaced immediately. It must be nice to be so wealthy that a parent can waste money on their children like that. Of course, I have come to see that the kids are always in their rooms, away from the family, so those gadgets have become their babysitters.
My children recently constructed a club house out in the yard out of old wood and scraps. No one helped them with this. (I did go stabilize it after it had been constructed with screws and the like and made sure it was safe). But they had the imagination, the ambition, and the confidence to do it all on their own. Granted, it's not the prettiest thing in the world, but it's THEIRS.
My granddaddy always told me that if you couldn't build it with your own two hands, work for it yourself, or pour your own blood, sweat, and tears into something, then it wasn't worth having.
People are lazy today. Children are brought up to be lazy (mine included). And then they wonder why kids get into trouble. Heck, they were just stealing- I mean, taking back what was rightfully theirs.
One final thing and I will stop this ramble:
When my oldest son was in kindergarten, he was deaf and couldn't hear the teacher's instructions, but we didn't know that he was deaf. He became angry and aggressive and acted out on that for a time and we didn't know what was wrong. We thought he was just being bad. Now, one particular day at school, he got into trouble and ended up attacking his teacher. The teacher took his bag and placed a note in it to his father. My son proceeded to tear the note into pieces because if his daddy saw it, "He would beat me to death!"
Naturally, the school called us up for a meeting. They wanted to know if we really "beat" our children. My husband doesn't do very well with people getting into personal business, so I had to do most of the talking. Anyways, I told them, "No, of course we do not beat our children, but they are punished. If a spanking is necessary, it will be given without hesitation."
Of course they asked us what reasons we could have for spanking a child.
My husband said, "I don't know. Attacking a teacher is a pretty good example."
They argued with us back and forth for quite a while.
Then, I just told them, "I do not mean any disrespect here, but let me tell you something. I will spank my children when I see it is necessary and I guarantee you one thing: It will not be my son that is assaulting, raping, robbing, and killing innocent people in the future. He's going to know that there is always a consequence for his actions and there is always someone out there that is just a little bit bigger and a little bit badder than him."
So, they let it go.
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Post by Adona Mara on Feb 7, 2007 14:34:28 GMT -5
Originally posted by Jinsei
Quote:
Just this past week, my wife and I moved out of the bedroom we shared with the kids and went to the room upstairs. As part of the agreement for us moving out, we hooked up a tv and vcr in the kids' room. They've got all of their videos to watch, but no access to the satellite dish. Arianna would be content to sit in there and watch the Care Bears movie until it's worn out and play with her toys than watch most of what we do on tv in the living room. However, I've set a limit on some things regarding her tv and the day before yesterday she made the decision on her own to go play outside for a few hours. Talara raked up leaves and Arianna played in the newly formed piles. This morning, she wanted to watch one of her movies in the bedroom, but I made her come out and watch Voltron in the living room with me. At first, she threw a fit, but settled in and became very interested in Voltron and asked questions about it.
There are a lot of benefits to putting a tv in their room, because it can be a babysitter when they don't want to do what you're doing in the living room. There are plenty of movies that come on tv that she'd prefer to not watch, so being able to say, "You can go watch something in your room." works great. Parents just need to set some limits on it's use.
Quote:
My big thing is that if you do it, admit to it and you'll get into far less trouble than if you lie to me and claim you didn't do it, because eventually I'll find out what the truth is and then you're in trouble for doing it and lying, of which you're punished for both offenses. Generally, I don't care if you've done something stupid and something got broken, because it's usually just a "thing" and can be replaced. But, when you lie to me and tell me you didn't break it, then you're trying to steal the truth from me and that's not so easy to fix.
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