Jedi Order - How I'd Do It...

[gazooayam]

Personally, I don't think there will ever be a successful RL Jedi Order. I identified with the fictional Jedi because it was a close description of what I already was, not the other way around. I didn't try to become a Jedi....telekenetic powers excepted, what Lucas described in his fiction was pretty close to how I lived in terms of attitude, and in terms of training in martial arts.

[obione]

I guess that pretty much the real question isn't it? More over than what is, or means to be, a jedi, the real concern is Why would we be needing a Jedi Order for? Do us, the hard SW fans, need it? for what? or the mankind as a whole needs it? Nah, can't be, do you think so?
Because if you answer that, all the other answers come along.

[Jinsei]

I think the reason for most people wanting a real Jedi Order is because they want the connection of a community. They want to be a part of something that's larger than themselves. I also believe that they're searching for knowledge, a place where they can become more educated to become Jedi, but also where others can learn the ways of the Jedi and the feeling that comes from feeling a closeness to the Force.

[Jinsei]

Here's some information that I got from here. I thought that it is something to consider for the current state of the Jedi...

What a Coven is Not

• A COVEN IS NOT A DEMOCRACY.
  
  Although many fine Neo-Pagan groups choose to operate using 'non-hierarchical consensus', traditional Wicca does not. In the United States, egalitarian assumptions are often at odds with the urge for individual distinction. When Wicca began, the need for hierarchy was self- evident: you worked until your achievement was obvious and then you received recognition. So a traditional coven is a hierarchy and, as High Priestess, you're in charge. That means you're responsible for whatever goes on and to blame for whatever goes wrong. Welcome to the Club. May you wield it skillfully!
  
  If you would lead people, you must offer them something valuable. If you want their loyalty, you must cultivate it. If you want their respect you must be honest, and that means, first, being honest with yourself. Do not let your words and deeds be seen to contradict each other. Keep the 'wit' in Witchcraft — by always laughing louder and longer at your own follies than those of others. Remember that true wisdom consists far less in what you know than in how you communicate it.
  
  Some Basics: From the beginning, be clear about what you expect. Put the coven by-Laws in writing. Make sure everybody has a copy — and reads it! If you teach, plan the lessons carefully. Don't make them too hard or too easy. Be concise and to the point; then allow time for discussion and feedback. And never expect your students to do any work you haven't done — or wouldn't do — yourself.
  
  As for technique, I offer Lao Tzu's cryptic maxim, "Govern a great empire as you would fry a small fish." In other words, keep an eye on the flame, watch it with the grease, know when each side is done and never let anything stick to the wok or you'll have a mess on your hands!
  
  
  
• A COVEN IS NOT A DICTATORSHIP.
  
  We have all heard horror stories of how Lady So-and-so bullied her students while keeping them beglamoured and ignorant. Likewise, we encounter examples of the High Priestess as Ultimate Arrogant Twit. But the true Priestess' prerogative is leadership. Yes, the High Priestess rules the coven. Anyone who does so successfully soon understands that TO RULE IS TO SERVE.
  
  The Power of traditional Wicca lies in the balance of opposites — and the Mystery of their union. They are equally potent and when joined become something far greater than each would have been alone. So if you are fortunate enough to have a devoted Working Partner, cherish their values and opinions as you do your own.
  
  Consult your Working Partner and Coven Elders on all major policy decisions. Let them overrule you occasionally. Keep your clout in reserve for things that really matter to you. Never argue with anyone in front of the whole coven. Instead, quietly use Magick in a positive way to facilitate accord. Learn to keep your own counsel. Above all, learn to preserve your dignity.
  
  
  
• A COVEN IS NOT AN EGO TRIP.
  
  Although most (all) of us actually have egos, we try very hard not to come off that way — at least not in public. But if you find yourself succumbing to High Priestess Disease, remember: AUTHORITY IS A GARMENT TO BE WORN LIGHTLY. The High Priestess is the "first among equals" and functions as the living representative of the Goddess. In plain English, she must practice what she preaches. No coven can long survive under a leader who mistreats her people; for all are equal in the Circle and each must be accorded the respect they deserve.
  
  If a High Priestess manipulates her coven, makes arbitrary rulings, withholds approval from those who merit it, obsesses over "enemies", or otherwise behaves irresponsibly, she will soon lose their love and respect. "Those who cannot bear your rule will leave you" — and they have every right to do so!
  
  
  
• A COVEN IS NOT A PYCHOTHERAPY GROUP.
  
  Magick and psychotherapy are not the same thing; in fact, they're rather inimical to each other (Just try telling a conventional shrink stuff happens as a result of your "projecting energy" at it!). In the hands of an experienced professional, psychotherapy can be a great healing tool; but mixing it with Wicca can be a great temptation for the High Priestess.
  
  As High Priestess you may counsel anyone who asks for your help, as long as you do so in private; but, under no circumstances, may you betray their confidential disclosures, nor attempt a clinical diagnosis unless you are professionally qualified to do so. And ever avoid ye Shrynke-Lyke cliches, such as "And how do you feel about that, Louise?" If you can't figure out how they feel about something, maybe it's none of your business!
  
  Those whom you initiate must be capable of handling their own emotional lives. Most of us are damaged or dysfunctional in some way, yet still manage to cope without the constant need to lean on others. Likewise, Wicca is not a 12-Step Program; if someone has a problem with compulsive behavior, they should work it out in therapy, not in your coven. Yes, crises arise now and then; but repeatedly wasting group time on an individual's 'personal issues' is boring and unfair. Discreetly refer such a person to a competent professional. As for your own mental health: you'll need it! So do whatever you must to maintain your equilibrium; but never allow your coven meetings to become group-therapy sessions — especially for yourself. It's one of the surest ways to lose their respect.
  
  
  
• A COVEN IS NOT A NUCLEAR FAMILY.
  
  One of the hallmarks of a good coven is that everyone feels like 'family.' A High Priestess is her coven's mentor and inspiration, not its' parent. Your coveners are Brothers and Sisters of the Craft, responsible adults, who must be treated as such. Many a High Priestess has chosen to project the image of Big Mommy, and so forced her students to remain in childlike roles indefinitely. I urge you to think carefully about why you would need this type of authority over others.
  
  Goddess-Worship often appeals to people recovering from childhood emotional and sexual abuse. This form of psychic damage is far more common than was once thought — and far easier to act out than to resolve. When you and your partner style yourselves Mom and Dad, you assume a loaded kind of authority which can easily become incestuous. So if you truly desire parental responsibility, have or adopt children of your own and raise them to maturity. You'll find it's quite different from bossing around a bunch of adult co- dependents! Meanwhile avoid using your coven as a surrogate for the 'perfect' nuclear family you never had.
  
  
  
• A COVEN IS NOT A HAREM.
  
  In my experience, teachers who get sexually involved with their students are asking for trouble. This may sound harsh, but in the long run it's the best policy. Someone who sees you as an authority figure needs to maintain his/her sexual distance as a balancing factor. Most women recognize that sleeping with the boss is a sleazy thing to do. So why act out a reversed-role form of this, simply because you can? Crudely put, this is 'shitting where you eat;' and nobody will respect you for it.
  
  Some Neo-Pagan groups advocate polygamous lifestyles, and that is certainly their right. Yet in my experience a coven that both prays and lays together doesn't stay together too long. Life might be different if the female of our species were not genetically designed to pair-bond through intercourse. I can only assume the Goddess made most of us this way for good and sufficient reasons. At any rate, the longterm soap opera quotient in every multiple and overlapping relationship I've observed has convinced me that the game is unworthy of the candle. Speaking strictly for myself, I cheerfully refer individuals with polygamous leanings to faiths such as Islam, Mormonism, or the Church of All Worlds. I do not initiate them.
  
  
  
• A COVEN IS NOT A PARTYING CREW.
  
  "Mirth and Reverence" both belong in the Circle, but the balance between them is very important. If you wish to imbibe or indulge on ritual occasions, by all means do so. But keep it down to a very dull roar: the last thing you need is to suddenly realize you're too zonked to remember your lines! Likewise, random interruptions or pure silliness, when casting the Circle, must be avoided at all costs. You may get a bit rowdier after the ritual solemnity is accomplished. Unless you live several miles from your nearest neighbors, I suggest you discourage the coven from baying at the Moon!
  
  
  
• A COVEN IS NOT A SOCIAL CLUB.
  
  I asked a Witch I greatly admire what she thought attracts people to the Craft. Her reply? "It's an excellent Shopping Opportunity." It's true! A subculture brimming with fellowship, drama, and creative self-expression offers something for everyone. Thus many people take up Witchcraft because they're lonely, horny, and bored; they feel the urge to Get a Life. Wicca is sexy, fun, and glamourous; it's also instant Identity, Power, and Community. The World Between the Worlds becomes a social Holodeck from which many are reluctant to emerge.
  
  As High Priestess you had best have a life outside your Craft and coven. Why?? Sooner or later you may find it worthwhile to relate to others without revealing your religion or proclaiming yourself 'Pagan Clergy.' Sooner or later your coven will graduate and move on, leaving you to wonder why theynever call you ...at least Once in the Month When the Moon is Full... Sooner or later you may come to realize that your activities in the (ugh) 'Real World' are just as vital to your health and emotional well-being as any you may pursue in the Pagan Community.
  
  
  
• A COVEN IS NOT A CAREER PATH.
  
  Wouldn't it be swell if you could just start your own little Pagan Church and get paid for doing what you love? Many people have, but doing this requires the sort of chutzpah which commands far more envy than respect. Maybe Uncle Gerald made up that rule against "...taking money for the usage of the Arts." Then again, maybe he didn't! Where you draw the line at commercializing your psychic talents is a matter of personal taste. Just remember, you'll be judged by your peers, and many of them are quick to take offense at any perceived 'sellout' of the Craft. This goes double for publically billing yourself as Thrice-Consecrated Lady Kallipygeia, High Priestess of Ancient Lemurian Wicca. The rubes may buy this; but insiders will collapse in hysterics at such pretensions, especially if you're under forty and haven't published anything in hardcover!
  
  Witchcraft has always been far more a of a Knack than an Anointing. Even if Wisdom could be conferred by fiat, the fact is that no lineage of Wicca per se goes back more than a generation or two. Finally, I would strongly caution you to forego public statements regarding what "all ethical, responsible Witches" believe. Practically speaking, you are never in a position to determine this for anyone but yourself.
  
  
  
• A COVEN IS NOT AN EMPIRE.
  
  Wicca is meant to be a self-perpetuating entity. If newcomers cannot join, rise through the ranks, and eventually found their own groups, the Craft cannot survive. 'Tis rumored that Gerald Gardner wasn't terribly picky about whom he initiated, and this alone may have caused Wicca to spread as rapidly as it did. So if buckles on your garter and/or a large political constituency are what really motivate you, you may well be tempted to do likewise.
  
  The problem with this is that one matriarch, no matter how dedicated or charismatic, can rarely administer anything bigger than three generations of extended family (Ask your Italian, Chinese, or Jewish grandmother about this if you don't believe me). Traditional Wicca provides quite adequately for the delegation of authority. But when the Line becomes a Tribe it starts getting unwieldy. By the time it's a Horde you're really in trouble! Inevitable misunderstandings will in turn generate factions; and very few of us possess the time, energy, or Solomonic wisdom to deal with the results.
  
  So keep your group small. It may sound elitist to say it, but quality control is far more important to a "Craft of Wisdom" than rapid proliferation. If someone is worth training at all, s/he is worth training well. To rush your Maiden through the Degrees just so you can be her Queen is stupid and shortsighted. You'll have only yourself to blame if she becomes your rival in a Wiccan Turf War — or worse, runs off with your High Priest!.
  
  Author's note:
  This piece is from my personal Book of Shadows: part of some 'common-sense' advice to the traditional High Priestess I've been compiling over the years. Since it's a personal statement (and a rather strong one at that), the standard disclaimers apply: This is my own opinion, based on my own years of 'trying to get it right' as High Priestess of a structured traditional coven. I offer it for what it may be worth to the reader — clearly without the presumption that anyone will agree with all of it! Enjoy.
  
  Lady Balachandra

[obione]

I think -community- is a keyword in here.

I think jedi community should aspire to the point that each one of their long-time members can recognize his her equal.And of course, that would be because of certain (I would say a high) degree of marksmanship in the Jedi Arts (still to be defined.. let's go one poit at the time)

So, you see.. it's a bit like a karateka. There is a dozen of different Karate styles. Yet, no matter what style one person might practice, he can instantly identify another karateka even from different style, just because of his or her attitude, posture, standing.

I think would be also a good idea, as I think someone said in the other forum, that jedi community be like masons. Masons help each other a lot, they've reached high levels nations goverment bodies just because of the inner loyality.

That's speaking in shorterm goals. In the long future of course we would be speaking of a physical great temple, and all that sort of stuff.

[Jinsei]

I once considered the idea that the Jedi Order should essentially be structured similar to a "secret society" crossed with the Boy Scouts. That it could be a 'brotherhood' of sorts, where rank/title are representative of actual training and dedication to the Order... actually, kind of similar to something like the Catholic Church.

In it, could be specific accomplishments that are required to achieve the next rank. Sort of like being a Neophyte in a Coven for a year and a day, that's the initation period where you're trying to determine if it's actually a path you want to pursue, then you're initiated as a 1st Degree. Eventually, you become 2nd, then 3rd, etc. until you're at the higher levels. But, it couldn't be totally reliant on the opinions of the higher levels to determine if you go up a level, it would need something like the badge system of the Scouts, where you do a task and get a badge. Get enough badges, go up a level.

[obione]

Aug 31, 2009 18:43:04 GMT -5 Jinsei said:

I once considered the idea that the Jedi Order should essentially be .....

And nowdays how do you visualize it? If may I ask...

[Jinsei]

Now? Now, I'm not so sure. I've been doing some research into various possibilities. The easiest solution would be to just get it classified as a religion and then anyone who believes in the Force could technically be a part of it, but I'm not sure how well that would go over with people, because it's not exactly Jedi. If it's done as a religion, then it could still work out where you simply take certain courses, put in so many years or hours, and you go up in rank.

As an 'Order' it would need to be structured in a way that would allow for the rank to actually mean something, not simply where the people in charge decided to vote and give someone a new rank. This is what happened at Jediism and during a meeting the Council all decided that they should be Jedi Masters, and they were.

[Empress Palpatine]

Right now, Jedi is a loose association, an anarchic movement of self-proclaimed persons. That is what it will likely remain unless a great leader rises. It needs its Buddha or its Jesus. This is not necessarily a bad thing because oftentimes organized religion goes astray, and then what is needed is a Martin Luther. Religions often lose their purity after the death of the founder.

Jedi is unique in that the founder, so to speak, was a person making a fictional story (George Lucas). I do not think he was actually trying to start a religion. History may one day tell of a person who founded a religion accidentally.

I think first one has to step back and say, "Why do I want to start a religion?" Is it because it would be a vehicle to bring one's experience to a higher and more fulfilling level? Technically speaking, a Jedi can be satisfied with just having communion with the Force, even if no one else is involved. We have to ask, why do we want others involved?

It may have to do with being human. We are social creatures. We want to seek out a common bond with others. Our desires along these lines may have more to do with being human than just being in tune with the Force.

The only strictly Force reason would be if by uniting in a group, the use of the Force will increase by shared understanding.

[obione]

Classified as a religion? I'm far from agree. Jedi were not a religion in fiction, so they shouldn't be it in our world neither. Jedi teachings, as I understand them, were oriented toward a life of enlightment, and probably toward combat situations too. So, just because you feel sad, lonely or your life is empty, it's not reason enough to choose the jedi path. Now, I might be classist and elitist (by the way, I am about to go to the other thread also), but as Qui-Gon said, becoming a jedi should not be an easy task, and even if you succed, must be a hard life.

Jedi should be like a religionless religious order. Like, imagine if there were to be shaolin monks, without Budhism, or monks, nuns and frais, without catholic church. That's how I visualize an actual jedi order.

Of course, everyone is welcome but, then you have to go all the way through, no just sunday's vague words or indirect talks.

That's why I am also completly opposed to talk people into jediism. That's naive, and makes us look silly and geekies. If someone watches for the first time Star Wars and is really impressed by the jedi ways, he will go to the internet and then he will find us. Not the other way around.

I sound to harsh, isn't it? Maybe, I just think jedi should be jealous of their knowledge.

Sept 1, 2009 20:00:01 GMT -5 Empress Palpatine said:

.... That is what it will likely remain unless a great leader rises. ....

Probably true. And my best guess is that that leader will have a deep conection with the Force. Probably he or she will be able to perform all the trickery from the movies AND also be able to teach these skills to others. Are we now making a prophecy of the choosen one?

Sept 1, 2009 20:00:01 GMT -5 Empress Palpatine said:

It needs its Buddha or its Jesus.

Shall we??? shall we?? please??

Sept 1, 2009 20:00:01 GMT -5 Empress Palpatine said:

Jedi is unique in that the founder, so to speak, was a person making a fictional story (George Lucas). I do not think he was actually trying to start a religion. History may one day tell of a person who founded a religion accidentally.

Neither was Jesus trying to found a new religion. As far as I recall he died being jew

Sept 1, 2009 20:00:01 GMT -5 Empress Palpatine said:

I think first one has to step back and say, "Why do I want to start a religion?" Is it because it would be a vehicle to bring one's experience to a higher and more fulfilling level? Technically speaking, a Jedi can be satisfied with just having communion with the Force, even if no one else is involved. We have to ask, why do we want others involved?

You practically answered yourslef:

Sept 1, 2009 20:00:01 GMT -5 Empress Palpatine said:

It may have to do with being human. We are social creatures. We want to seek out a common bond with others. Our desires along these lines may have more to do with being human than just being in tune with the Force.

You DID answered yourself:

Sept 1, 2009 20:00:01 GMT -5 Empress Palpatine said:

The only strictly Force reason would be if by uniting in a group, the use of the Force will increase by shared understanding.

[Jinsei]

Jedi were not a religion in fiction, so they shouldn't be it in our world neither.

Actually, it's referred to as a religion several times in the movies, not counting books, comic books, etc. for the Expanded Universe.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." - Han Solo

"Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the Rebel's hidden fort…" - Motti

[obione]

And you agree with me that both Han, Motti... and also don't forget Moff Tarkin ("you are all that is left from the religion" or something like that) were widely misguided about the issue

[Jinsei]

They may have been misguided, but even the common folk know a religion when they see it. The Jedi had all the trappings of a religion... a firm belief in a higher power, an organization, missions to recruit new members, etc.

Remember, the three of them that talked about it were actually alive before Order 66 was given. They would have been there to see exactly what happened. Then, with them all no longer believing in a religion, it shows that they were likely persuaded to believe that the religion was evil or false, which would have worked out well for Palpatine, because it kept people from learning too much about the ways of the Force.

[obione]

Now I got it. The word I really meant was "churchless" religious order.

I still vote for the secret society to be honest

[gazooayam]

If it happens, it will happen in an organic fashion. Indeed, it already is. Consider it an experimental organism...it grows, it learns, some evolutionary paths are taken which flourish for awhile and then, sometimes catastrophically, collapse. Some struggle on, and adapt, and a fully fledged species arises, stable, strong enough to survive and replicate itself.

The Jedi Order already exists...it's just in its infancy, disorganized, unstructured, but aware....and sites like this, and the efforts of Jedi such as Moonshadow( who arranges the Gathers) are its cradle and its nurse.

-GaZoo